Interview by Jana Hoops. Special to the Clarion-Ledger Sunday print edition (November 4)

By examining the true story of George Washington’s six-month battle with disease, desertion, and frigid weather as he turned the Continental Army into a fighting force that would win America’s freedom from the British, co-authors Bob Drury and Tom Clavin show readers how this turning point in U.S. history is still relevant today.

Valley Forge is the pair’s sixth book together, supported by research that includes thousands of original documents written or dictated by Washington and highlighted with “a cast of iconic characters”–some of whose names have faded from history but who were instrumental in America’s struggle for freedom.

Drury and Clavin’s previous books include the New York Times number one bestseller The Heart of Everything That Was, and other New York Times bestsellers Halsey’s Typhoon, Last Men Out, and The Last Stand of Fox Company.

Drury said his collaboration with Clavin has “settled into a process” of shared research, with him conducting interviews and Clavin taking the lead in editing.

“He is a very good editor, and I do the writing,” Drury said. “We realized we couldn’t have four hands on the keyboard.”

Bob Drury

All told, Drury has authored and/or edited nine books, and his work has also appeared in The New York Times, Vanity Fair, Men’s Journal and GQ. Nominated for three National Magazine Awards and a Pulitzer Prize, Drury has covered news in Iraq, Afghanistan, Liberia, Bosnia, Northern Ireland, and Darfur, among other sites. He makes his home at the Jersey shore.

Clavin, who lives in Sag Harbor, New York, has worked as a reporter for the New York Times, and has served as a newspaper and web site editor, as well as working as a magazine writer and TV and radio commentator. He has earned awards from the Society of Professional Journalists and the National Newspaper Association.

What was it about Washington that motivated him to persevere despite not only the conditions of the Valley Forge winter, but the political battles he also fought on a regular basis?

In public, Washington showed his steely will, but we discovered a different side. In private, he was very conflicted. One of the tensions of Valley Forge was that Washington had the weight of the war and the protection of his men on his shoulders, as well as his political relationship with the Continental Congress–and it burdened him.

He had the console of his young officers and “surrogate sons”–the Marquis de Lafayette, who was only 19; Alexander Hamilton, who was 22; and John Laurens – the “forgotten founding father,” also 22. Alone, he unburdened himself to (his wife) Martha.

I have personally read every (document) Washington wrote during (a period from) 1777 to 1778. He wrote about how he felt the burden he could never show to the Congress. On the outside he kept a steely composure and will. His confidants and his journals allowed him to keep his composure.

Of the 2,000 men who perished at Valley Forge (that winter of 1777-1778), half died of starvation and exposure, and half from diseases like typhus, typhoid and cholera.

Washington had to make an example of himself. He was driven. We don’t think of Washington as insecure. But earlier he had to take orders from British officers whom he outranked. He was a man who had no college education. Yet he became the father of our country

Through the years, several other authors have written books about the events at Valley Forge that winter. What is it about your account of Valley Forge that separates it from other books?

We contend that Valley Forge was THE turning point of the American Revolution. As we were putting this book together, we knew that other (authors) have disagreed. Everyone has their own feeling of what was the turning point for the Americans. We give a view of Washington they’ve never seen before. We decided early on that we would be prepared for this (challenge).

We present a cast of characters others have not, and we dispel many of the myths.

One of those myths is the notion of what bad luck it was for George Washington and his men to have been at Valley Forge in such a bad winter. Actually, it was one of the mildest on record at that time. The records show that it would snow, then soon turn 40 degrees, then it would rain, and everything would turn to mud–and the latrines would overflow. Over 500 horses starved to death in the freezing cold. They would be buried about a foot deep, and the heavy rains would wash their bodies up. Together, this created a pervasive odor that hung over the camp and made it miserable.

Another myth was that everyone (around the Valley Forge area) was starving to death, but 1777 produced the greatest harvest of the decade. There was plenty of corn, wheat, cattle, and mutton. The problem for the soldiers was that the local farmers preferred to smuggle their foods to the British Army for money. Remember, not all Americans supported the revolution. About 40 percent of the country’s population then were for the revolution; about 20 percent remained loyalists to King George, and the other 40 percent were really not committed to either side.

Another fact we bring to light is that this was the first time in American history that the military was integrated. There were 750 black soldiers, all free men from the northeast, who fought alongside the Continental Army. American military units were not integrated again until the Korean War (in the 1950s).

If the British had chosen to attack Washington and his men at Valley Forge that winter, history would have surely been changed forever. Do you think it was America’s destiny that it didn’t turn out that way?

I think it was a combination of destiny and British hubris. Back then there was a “fighting season” in temperate climates, and armies didn’t fight in winter. If they had attacked Washington at Valley Forge that winter, they would have overrun the American forces in a minute. They were overconfident that they would brush the Continental Army like a piece of lint off their shoulder. They thought that in the spring, they would take care of this rag-tag army.

I think it was a little destiny, a little luck, and a lot of British hubris.

When you’re researching a book that dates back this far, do you find yourself in awe of the fact that you’re looking at actual diaries and documents that are as old as these, and that they belonged to real people?

Oh, yes. Valley Forge is so well documented. I read nearly 2,000 documents that were written or dictated by Washington. Quite often with centuries-old documents like diaries or journals, university libraries and sometimes historical societies preserve them in such a way that you cannot touch them with your hands. They may be stored in fiberglass boxes and you have to turn the pages with tongs because they’re so old and fragile.

On one hand it makes you realize how young this country is. Also, we can clearly see what we think we know about Washington, and what is actually true. His writings show us his angst and self-doubt about things we never think of.

Why do we need to be reminded about Valley Forge today–and how can we apply the hard-fought lessons of what they endured and what their sacrifice helped make possible?

Not to be too political, but our country is so polarized today–not that it wasn’t in 1777 and 1778. At that time the U.S. was in an age of enlightenment: there was a novel idea that thinking itself, and definitely expressing those thoughts, that was the ultimate form of political engagement.

I think that’s something we’ve lost today, and that (finding it again) would move our country forward.

Bob Drury will at Lemuria on Monday, November 12, at 5:00 p.m. to sign and read from Valley Forge. Valley Forge is Lemuria’s November 2018 selection for its First Editions Club for Nonfiction.

Interview by Jana Hoops. Special to the Clarion-Ledger Sunday print edition (October 7)

Author-journalist Hampton Sides brings his readers yet another true–but almost unbelievable–high-stakes account of grit and courage with his newest work, On Desperate Ground: The Marines at the Reservoir, the Korean War’s Greatest Battle.

Though lesser known than other heroic military campaigns throughout America’s history, the struggle that played out along the frozen shores of the Chosin Reservoir in the snowy mountains of North Korea in 1950 tested the mettle of the First Marine Division beyond reason.

Through his meticulous research that includes declassified documents, unpublished letters and interviews with scores of survivors on both lines, Sides presents a “grunt’s-eye view of history” as he shows “what ordinary men are capable of in the most extreme circumstances.”

His previous books include Ghost Soldiers, Blood and Thunder, Hellhound on His Trail, and In the Kingdom of Ice. An award-winning editor for Outside magazine, Sides’ Ghost Soldiers also captured the PEN USA Award for Nonfiction.

A native of Memphis, Sides is a graduate of Yale University and teaches narrative nonfiction at Colorado College.

Since you grew up in Memphis, do you have ties to our state?

Yes. I have deep roots in Mississippi, actually. I have lots of relatives from around Holly Springs. My dad taught at Ole Miss law school. Some of my best early journalism was done in the state. And I always love getting back to the Delta, which just has a certain vibe about it that I’ve always loved.

Throughout your writing career, your books and journalistic works have focused on a steady stream of real-life–and often high-risk–tales of adventure, discovery, exploration, and the great outdoors, not to mention war and other profound historical narratives. Tell me how you developed your appetite for these bold themes.

Hampton Sides

Probably my interest in these types of stories grew out of my years as an editor at Outside magazine, which over the years has run some of the very best adventure and sports writing in the country. When I was on staff there, I got to work with some of the preeminent writers in the country, who gave me some terrific ideas about how to make writing vivid and muscular, and how to make things come alive on the page.

I decided to go back into history and hunt for some of those same qualities that we were looking for at Outside. Many of my books have focused on the larger theme of human endurance–how people survive terrible ordeals, summoning some combination of courage, ingenuity, and grace under pressure. It’s a powerful motif, and one I seem to keep returning to.

On Desperate Ground is an account of the almost unbelieveable efforts of the U.S. Marines during a pivotal battle in the Korean conflict of the 1950s. Considering the substantial investment  of your time and effort, how do you make decisions on topics to write about–and how did this story catch your attention?

Years ago, at a book signing in Virginia, I met a grizzled old veteran of the battle. With a hand that was missing a few digits from frostbite, he slipped me this card that said “The Chosin Few.” He said I ought to write about it someday. Honestly, I’d never even heard of the Chosin Reservoir. I put the card in my pocket and didn’t think about it for many years.

When I finally started looking into the battle, I realized it was one of the most harrowing clashes in our history, a remarkable feat of arms. I thought it should be better known. Here, it seemed, was the ultimate military survival story. Finally, with all the recent developments in our relations with China and the two Koreas, I felt that was an auspicious time to tell this classic story.

Many readers will no doubt be surprised to read your portrayal of Gen. Douglas MacArthur, disclosed in this book through his actions and attitudes. Describe the man your research revealed.

In 1950, Douglas MacArthur was a famously arrogant man and a glory hound at the height of his power, but he was criminally out of touch with reality. He ignored clear evidence that vast numbers of Chinese had entered North Korea to spring a trap and prepare a surprise attack.

He presided over one of the most egregious intelligence failures in American military history. And once the intelligence came in loud and clear, he and his staff of sycophants chose to ignore it, suppress it, or willfully misinterpret its import. In so doing, they needlessly put many tens of thousands of Americans in harm’s way. In my mind, he has a lot of blood on his hands.

You write in the book that the soldiers who survived this horrific, bitterly cold battle were “different men” when it was over. What can you tell me about your interviews with actual survivors of this battle.

At Chosin, the mercury dropped to 20 below zero, sometimes even lower. Many weapons wouldn’t fire. Lots of guys froze to death. The weather claimed more casualties than the combatants did. More than 80 percent of these men suffered severe frostbite. Many lost fingers and toes. Some of them told me they still feel the cold., that they never did quite thaw the chill from their bones.

All battles are terrible, but this one was fought under such extreme conditions, on such forbidding terrain, in such insane weather, and against such overwhelming numerical odds, that it takes a special place in the annals of combat. It’s one of the most decorated battles in our nation’s history, and with good reason. The extremity of the ordeal brought to the fore a naked survival instinct, a fierce camaraderie, and a rare improvisational spirit.

And yet, because i twas in the Korean War, much about their experience has been forgotten. I know a lot of these veterans are resentful of the fact that their experiences and sacrifices seem to have been largely ignored by so many of their countrymen and given short shrift in the history books.

The current, developing relationship between North and South Korea, along with the role of the United States, has been in the news a lot lately. Can  you share your thoughts on their progress, and what you may see in their future?

I recently spent time in South Korea, and I was heartened by what I saw and heard. I could feel a certain energy in the air, almost like we saw in Germany before the wall came down. I know that President Trump likes to take credit for these developments, but the desire to improve relations between the two countries is much, much bigger than any one individual. I think what we are seeing is largely an organic phenomenon of the people, not one that’s particularly being driven by the U.S., China, or any other power.

Of course, Korea should never have been divided in the first place–it is one of the great tragedies of modern times. Many, many thousands of families were torn apart and never were allowed to see each other again. Korea is one people, one language, one culture, and I believe one day it will be united again.

Are you already working on another book or other project, and, if so, what can you tell me about it?

My next book, tentatively titled The Resolution, is about the final fateful voyage of the British explorer, Captain James Cook. It takes place during the American Revolution, and I plan to give the story a uniquely American slant. I’ve just begun the research, which will take me from Tasmania to Kamchatka, from the Bering Strait to Tahiti, with lots of time in Hawaii and the archives of London. In the end, it’s a story of far-flung exploration, and a tragic collision of cultures in Polynesia. It will keep me busy for years, and I can’t wait to get started.

Hampton Sides will be at Lemuria on Wednesday, October 10, at 5:00 p.m. to sign and read from On Desperate Ground. On Desperate Ground is Lemuria’s October 2018 selection for our First Editions Club for Nonfiction.